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catnip40
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Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans 1
#27985683 - 10/06/22 11:05 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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This is by no means a revolutionary claim I'm trying to make as many people have had this thought and I've saw it mentioned and discussed briefly over the years in the ovoid threads, but I have never saw all the data points collected and presented in one place. I am just connecting a bunch of dots like a conspiracy theorist would, I not attached to this idea or anything I have thrown out nor am I trying to misrepresent anything, just over the years I have thought a lot of these dots could be connected in some way. I'm going to link/quote anything I can find that mentions this or briefly discusses it 2012: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16012522#16012522 2014: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20107320#20107320 page 85 of The Official Ovoid Thread 2014 has a few posts https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20365377#20365377 2015: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22692595#22692595 end of page 94 into 95 has a few posts 2016: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23077095#23077095 https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23805707#23805707 2022: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27763213#27763213
The first thing that stands out is the proximity of Native American lands or settlements and mounds near rivers/floodplains and where Ps. ovoideocystidiata occur. It seems some of the most hotbed spots for ovoids are in the same areas as mounds or Native American settlements
Hopewell interaction Sphere
    Distribution of Ps. ovoideocystidiata (wikipedia map) > Mushroom Observer Map > Inaturalist Map
   Distribution of Box Elder
 Traditional uses and benefits of Box Elder Tea made from the inner bark is used as an emetic. The Meskwaki and Objibwa used it in various ways to induce vomiting. Other Native American tribes used it to treat respiratory conditions, kidney infections, paralysis, and swellings, and other ailments. European settlers used varying dosages of the inner bark of the tree to both reduce and induce vomiting, and also in a wash to treat maladies of the skin. Sap has been used to make syrup by Native Americans, including the Dakota, Omaha, Pawnee and the Ponca. The Cheyenne mix the boiled sap with shavings from the inner sides of animal hides and eat them as candy. The Ojibwa mix the sap with that of the sugar maple and drink it as a beverage from https://www.healthbenefitstimes.com/box-elder/ with references
Native Americans foraged edible mushrooms so I imagine it's unlikely they would have overlooked ovoids.
One of the most convincing data points is the Hopewell mushroom effigy and its resemblance to Ps. ovoideocystidiata. The historians or archaeologists who found this have stated that it is likely an effigy of an Amanita species which may be true but I think if they had known about ovoids when this discovery was made it might be a different story, although Rätsch does identify the effigy as Psilocybe sp. in The Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants (1998)
       
      Photos of ovoids from NaturesSon, Old45, and last four TexturedSounds (in order)
There is one other mushroom effigy made from stone which doesn't look like an ovoid(but possibly resembles laughing gym), and some copper, quartz, and limestone cones that resemble ovoid caps in my opinion
 
  
(F) Cones, copper and hollow, milky quartz and solid, limetonse and solid, similar to ones used ethnohistorically in divination and gambling. From the Great Cache in the Tremper mound, Ohio. (F) Resembles ovoid caps
    Photos from TexturedSounds
The potential find of ovoids in 1894 in Delaware is another data point that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Native Americans but tells us that ovoids were possibly here at least 100+ years ago (If the Hopewell knew about ovoids they would have been here ~2000 years ago)
 ref. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26100851#26100851 cannot locate original Facebook post
While this doesn't pertain to ovoids specifically, this anecdotal report from author P.D. Newman may suggest some Native Americans knowledge of Psilocybe species, namely Ps. cubensis.
 From Alchemically Stoned: The Psychedelic Secret of Freemasonry (2017) P.D. Newman was born in 1983, so we may be able to say that his great great grandfather was born sometime in the 1800s.
Books/Refrence materials https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/inside-the-collections.htm https://ohiomemory.org/digital/collection/p267401coll36/id/10885/ https://server16007.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p267401coll36&CISOPTR=10885&CISOBOX=1&REC=5 https://columbusunderground.com/the-trove-of-ancient-monuments-in-columbus-backyard-bc1/ https://ohioarchaeology.org/articles-and-abstracts-2001/120-hopewell-copper-in-context-at-mound-city-group http://worldheritageohio.org/wp-content/support/docs/Hopewell%20Comparative%20Analysis%20Draft%20Feb%202013.pdf
Shamans of the Lost World: A Cognitive Approach to the Prehistoric Religion of the Ohio Hopewell (Issues in Eastern Woodlands Archaeology)
Hopewell Ceremonial Landscapes of Ohio: More Than Mounds and Geometric Earthworks (American Landscapes)
Gathering Hopewell: Society, Ritual and Ritual Interaction
Being Scioto Hopewell: Ritual Drama and Personhood in Cross- Cultural Perspective
The Encylopedia of Psychoactive Plants
If anyone has additional data to add or make corrections I would greatly appreciate it, this is going to be an ongoing thing and I will be trying to edit/organize it better with time. I just wanted to get this written out and get the data points I have collected all in one place because I have beem thinking about this for years and I have probably forgotten/lost some of the information I had found years prior
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catnip40
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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: catnip40]
#28118357 - 12/31/22 03:44 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Nitro87
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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: catnip40]
#28118464 - 12/31/22 07:29 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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A very interesting read. Thanks for doing the digging and sharing it!
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Mead

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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: catnip40] 1
#28119301 - 12/31/22 08:23 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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the man
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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: Mead]
#28119367 - 12/31/22 09:06 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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there is a specific tribe that ate alot of mushrooms, many/most didnt as far as we know some ate a species or 2, i imagine the reason not many north americans used them alot is because of galarina as looks very similar so imagine one guy ate them and was magicand next guy died so perhaps steered clear. south americans had greater knowledge/spare time and less nomadic and perhaps let them dial in IDs/species aswell as longer fruiting seasons.
because box elder was used does not mean much, esp when temporal dif from fruiting and sap collection(when snow is on the ground).
im not saying its not possible a small tribe or 4 partook, but typically anything with such power gets traded/dried and found in grave sites etc.
remember pre colonization there was not large ungulates(we large enough dung that support cubes) in the south(bison only went as far south as wyoming ish if i am not mistaken) ie were not as abundant (cubensis) and infact it is thought(iirc from new genetic testing) they arrived from africa/asia as makes sense as had ALOT of ungulates roaming grasslands.
if natives at mushrooms it would of been in there lexicon as PLENTY of magic type plants were, would be strange the MOST magic one would not stay apart of the culture or have some sort of connection to a ceremony at certain time of year IMO.
also explorers would of made note of such things like peyote aya and mushrooms in other places.
is it possible 30%+ of tribes esp in PNW ate magic mushrooms on the regular? sure, but nothing compelling esp with so many artifacts and oral history this powerful thing never really came up like it did in south america. maybe why south american natives became so powerful and built such amazing things and farmed in a tradition sense! can u imagine walking those white roads at night on ps mexicanas? WOW!
certainly was wide spread use of steam and smoke to shift consciousness along with other other plants, so id suspect they would of at least have SOME oral tradition of shrooms if that was the case.
so again, possible? sure, compelling evidence, not so much. ESP when there is tribes we know of that ate ALOT of mushrooms but no mention of psilocybe as find them dried and oral traditions etc.
cool compiling of info though! but i truly think galerina tossed a wrench and stopped tribes from attempting to harvest LBM, and therefore 99% of psilocybe. maybe ate shrooms for a generation or 2 but stopped because of poisonings, we prob will never know.....just a theory.
Edited by the man (01/01/23 12:20 AM)
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CHUCK.HNTR
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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: the man]
#28119456 - 12/31/22 10:59 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Mead

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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: the man] 1
#28119768 - 01/01/23 08:43 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Just want to say you're wrong on ungulates. Bison were hunted in Pennsylvania, plus plenty of psilocybes grow on deer and elk dung. Regardless if elk barely exist today, they used to cover almost the entire east coast(all of appalachin mountain range.)
The mounds in middle america were, in some respects, greater than the buildings down Mexico way, not just in size either. We don't know as much because people started literal mining companies to mine the mounds (not mountains.) They would dynamite and plow through the mounds just looking for the metal objects. Destroying most of the archeological context/evidence in the process, textiles get exposed to air and crumble into nothing. You'd be very surprised if you took a bit to research and see what was actually contained in those mounds. It's incredible to the lay person that wants to believe it was just a bunch of naked savages roaming around, but they most certainly weren't.
The shell mounds are antoher thing that was destroyed on purpose for fertilizer(shells are calcium) that were absolutely massive and had to be built over many many many generations(and of the few remaining they have found burials.)
Beneath a local highway here(northeast) was the "iron path" a "warpath" that was so well worn it was said to be as hard as iron and were later used as horse paths, and then later the highway was put down on top of it(and the first toll roads because those paths crossed mountain ranges.) They definitely weren't the roaming evil dumb savages that the "winners" would have you believe.
We know, not even from copper, but based on flint compositions (and styles of manufacture) that these people were in contact over great areas, and in context they weren't just wandering or random, the same types of objects(and pre-made cores) show up in the same areas over many years, but the materials came from hundreds of miles away(or more) passing over many other types of flints. New Yorkers were traveling down to the beaches in MD and VA for thousands of years (we dont' really know about beaches because during the ice age the coast was many miles further offshore than today and people love living near the water.)
Also tens of millions of years ago Africa wasn't Africa and N/S America wasn't America(continental plate movements) when psilocybe mushrooms evolved/came about. But I wonder what was growing here 10000+ years ago out of that wooly mammoth/camel/horse giant dung piles. 
All that said, I don't have convictions either way. They definitely used mushrooms for many purposes and shamans have existed everywhere, but without evidence I'm not just going to "believe." But I wouldn't doubt it if some chemical analysis were to come about that detects certain mushrooms on certain objects 
Sorry this isn't mushroom related and only like tangentially related to mound peoples, but for anyone who has studied the mystery of the "bird stones" , I noticed the other day that they look just like the birds on the bronze boat figurines from the Nuragic civilization; no conspiracy for me but maybe they were just birds (I think they could be used for attaching netting or anchoring and the majority have been found in the great lakes region and (if I recall correctly) some in conjunction with boats.
sorry 99% of that was shot from the hip based on recollection -- not a college thesis.
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the man
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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: Mead]
#28119957 - 01/01/23 11:50 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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yes pen state is approx as south as wyoming.(which i was correct about for later years but turns out very wrong about as they lived in texas apparently just not overlapping the cubensis climate closer to florida ) LARGE UNGULATES u know, the ones that make big enough poo for cubensis to grow in mass but thanks for the non correction correction. BUT, i did make an error and thanks for making me think! I meant to say rumanants not ungulates although can be both rumanants is what i meant. something about the crudeness of the large ungulates and LOW PH allows cubensis to flourish like in elephants cows and sometimes maybe horses (although some say never FROM horse dung but will grow from under horse dung or once has added lignin/nutrient to soil after breaks down,but of course INDOOR cultivation people use horse dung).
what are these plenty of psilocybe that grow on deer dung?? been studying them over 2 decades and have never come across this?
interesting about the mounds.. although teh wording MINE is maybe not correct and perhaps looting is a more appropriate term. believe it was in peru or bolivia walls were apparently coated in gold! wouldnt call it mining when they took their gold. we have mounds in canada but were created by vikings 6-700 years pre columbus.. I wonder if they will be eventually connected to other settlers prob would explain the general slightly taller stature in teh bones? If ever used/studied carbon dating its not 100% or even 85%, few hundred years eitherway is well within error. love archeology but also hate it after studied it as its all just one but yarn often spun with half truths for a time until disproved and the folks who spin teh best yarns get the most money and do the most research... just FAR to easy to have bias, i moved on to medium hard sciences
happy new year!
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Hunter hunter
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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: the man]
#28120041 - 01/01/23 01:11 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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catnip40
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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: Hunter hunter] 1
#28120230 - 01/01/23 04:06 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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I was going to add in that there are similarities in some artifacts/effigies found in the mounds across america and those of the Olmec, Maya, Aztec ect. I'm not for certain about every mound all over america but I have definitely saw some stuff about there being mayan pottery and similar artifacts found around mound sites in florida
I don't think crossing the gulf of mexico would have been too difficult for them if they were building pyramids.
The mounds almost look as if they were pyramids at some point and just way older/weathered or something extreme destroyed them (big stretch i know, but imagine what a pyramid would look like after it was weathered and crumbled and new dirt and trees grow over top... a mound that remains)
also it has been stated (don't remember source or credibility) that the mounds originally were not burial mounds and that it was the later cultures that would move in and actually use them for burials but they were around for long enough that several cultures could have moved in and repurposed or ect
the suggestion that they wouldn't have been able to identify a psilocybe vs a galerina, I don't think that is giving these native people enough credit. That is not that difficult of a task and I feel the shamans would have definitely had the wits to know one from another..
If you look at the timelines there is some overlap between when the adena/hopewell existed and the olmecs/maya and maybe there was some information exchange there
But you are right that its not much of evidence and just a mishmash of information, I'll give you that lol
at the beginning of my post i stated this is just connecting a bunch of random dots like a conspiracy theorist 
gonna edit this post later and provide some links/pics
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the man
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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: Hunter hunter]
#28120341 - 01/01/23 05:22 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hunter hunter said:

yup bulk of populations never inhabited prime cubensis zones. note florida coastal texas didnt really support them. already mentioned i was incorrect about zones as was from memory they only went as far south as wyoming prob was taught this from later date populations or range of herds found around here in canada or perhaps just the woodland bison didnt go that far south really dont know. they say teh cattle ingrit or whatever bird is really what moves the spores around if guzmans are correct(and i remember correctly). aswell as once we get into texas region start to have more of the mayan aztec trading and the tribe that made all the water ways and farmed in arizona and we know 100% they were using peyote and it further south def were eating mushrooms, its the northern more nomadic folks with less time to chill with bounties vs surviving -40 in a tipi many feet of snow to try and go find game, def some hardcore genetics of those folks who could not eat stand the cold/hardships/darkness.. me id be walking south every year lol..
Edited by the man (01/01/23 05:36 PM)
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catnip40
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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: catnip40]
#28120356 - 01/01/23 05:37 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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mobydickofdopeness
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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: catnip40]
#28120428 - 01/01/23 06:47 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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I think it's very possible that there could have been an occasion where a native consumed some of an ovoid, then felt strange and uncomfortable for a while and didn't enjoy it, and then conclude the mushroom was poisonous. And then gradually the knowledge spread that those blue-staining mushrooms were toxic and people just avoided them.
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Moria841



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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: Mead]
#28120445 - 01/01/23 07:03 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mead said:
 Hopewell mound
   
Hopewell caerulipes connection???
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catnip40
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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: mobydickofdopeness]
#28120525 - 01/01/23 08:33 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
mobydickofdopeness said: I think it's very possible that there could have been an occasion where a native consumed some of an ovoid, then felt strange and uncomfortable for a while and didn't enjoy it, and then conclude the mushroom was poisonous. And then gradually the knowledge spread that those blue-staining mushrooms were toxic and people just avoided them.
don't want to sound too defensive because I am not trying to prove one way or the other just pointing out coincidental type information
however i do think its just as much of a stretch to say they did not use them just the same as trying to say that they did use them
in reality we really don't know and might not ever know.
It is really odd that they did have certain objects that really resemble ovoids and or caerulipes as Mead has posted above. I imagine these objects were a lot more common and we have only found a few so far. a lot of the mound sites were completely wrecked and looted and some never explored and just plowed over. there are some still in tact that just look like hills in the woods now and have not been investigated
The olmecs and central american natives definitely used psilocybe species. Why would it be so hard to fathom that the hopewell would have as well? These things grow like crazy during the right time of year and I don't see how they would have been overlooked or concluded as poisonous and just wrote off that quickly
How did the Olmecs and maya,aztec stumble upon the psilocybes and not just conclude the same thing
I do think there was some cross influence between the hopewell and olmecs or central american natives in some way. I don't know how but there are similarities in the effigies for sure. They are not exact but some are pretty similar and of the same subject matter, eg toad, jaguar ect like animals
if the hopewell or olmecs did not cross the gulf of mexico then could there have been a sea faring culture which did and spread their ideas?
there really is not much evidence for any of this just seems like they would have been capable of doing so
at one point in time there could have even been less water and higher ground in the yucutan peninsula,cuba and florida region and maybe they could have just walked up a land bridge or had to pass smaller bodies of water to reach florida
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336845386_Erosion_of_the_Florida_and_Yucatan_Carbonate_Margins_of_the_Gulf_of_Mexico_Subaqueous_or_Subaerial_264 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Configuration-of-the-Gulf-of-Mexico-and-surrounding-areas-at-the-climax-of-the_fig2_336845386
https://beforetheegyptians.com/journey/cuba/ https://www.deseret.com/2001/12/8/19620752/team-finds-6-000-year-old-city-under-water-near-cuba
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dizzy_simmons
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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: catnip40]
#28147832 - 01/19/23 04:48 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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A little late to the party, but just wanted to point out Bison *did* roam all the way to cubensis habitat, at least as far as central Florida. There is even a small (reintroduced) herd at Paynes Prairie State Park outside Gainesville where you can find cubes on buffalo dung in the modern era.
As to the lack of evidence for/against indigenous use, you have to remember that MILLIONS of the native peoples here died before the English even set foot because of diseases that spread along trade routes from South America via the Spanish/Portuguese. The peoples of the Eastern USA have also been colonized & repressed longest of all, the fact that we have no record of any mycological knowledge left whatsoever speaks volumes.
-------------------- UNDO YOUR DOMESTICATION Looking for: ***The Land of the Free*** Ps. caerulipes Ps. cubensis Ps. cyanescens Ps. ovoideocystidiata Pan. cinctulus Pan. cyanescens
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Alan Rockefeller
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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: dizzy_simmons] 2
#28147870 - 01/19/23 05:26 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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I think it's unlikely that native Americans used Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata because they would have to had eaten a lot of little brown mushrooms to discover them, and they would have been much more likely to get sick eating LBM's than to find a psychoactive one.
My guess is that native Mexicans discovered them because some of the Mexican Psilocybe are very large and would be tempting to try for dinner.
It is also possible that P. ovoideocystidiata is a recent introduction - an ITS sequence matching P. ovoideocystidiata was recently added from China, so it's possible that one of the old, forgotten Psilocybe names is an older and therefore more correct name for P. ovoideocystidiata.
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dizzy_simmons
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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#28148110 - 01/19/23 08:52 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: My guess is that native Mexicans discovered them because some of the Mexican Psilocybe are very large...
Isn't P. mexicana (or teotlnanácatl as the Mexica called it 2,000 years ago) roughly the same size as P. ovoideocystidiata? Idunno, after all the whitewashing and the abysmal portrayal of native peoples, I'm hesitant to give credence to the idea they couldn't tell LBM's apart any better than highschool kids from the slums of Jersey - especially since they were trading for corn from people who knew all about blue-staining fungi.
Interesting points tho. The ITS sample sounds like a real chicken or egg quandary. The East US and parts of China have so many similar endemic species (Panax, Schisandra, Torreya, etc.), and we've been trading "invasives" for over 200 years now.
-------------------- UNDO YOUR DOMESTICATION Looking for: ***The Land of the Free*** Ps. caerulipes Ps. cubensis Ps. cyanescens Ps. ovoideocystidiata Pan. cinctulus Pan. cyanescens
Edited by dizzy_simmons (01/20/23 07:40 AM)
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the man
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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: dizzy_simmons]
#28148358 - 01/20/23 02:57 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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except ovoids were described 10 years ago in america, pretty strange when grow similar spots as other woodlovers yet didn't see a tonne of unknown weird cyans 20 years ago. anecdote yes. also many edible mushrooms stain blue too or are blue so its not something super unique and would of eaten blue staining boletes.
also yes highschool drop outs have far more information tools knowledge at there fingertips than native peoples. doesnt make them dumb, just is what it is where folks lived played largest part in knowledge/discoveries because of resources.
anyway im with alan as far as thats its likely didnt mess with lbm, and would be very surprising wouldnt of made it into lexicon or found dried and traded. but other active plants did and peyote and shrooms did in southern tribes and have hard time believing no metis that intigrated cultures would not of partook and recorded mushrooms.
correct me if i am wrong but no super compelling evidence even pagans ate liberty caps, fly agaric i think is all we know..(nice large meaty so as alan says look good to eat)
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dizzy_simmons
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Re: Some data points to make the case that Ps. ovoideocystidiata are historically significant and were used by Native Americans [Re: the man]
#28148538 - 01/20/23 08:08 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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So you just gonna gloss over the very first sentence of my post pointing out ovoids are basically the same size as the exact infamous species used by the Aztecs?  Aight, but we *know* the Aztecs partook. AFAIK, archeologists have never found “dried specimens” in Mexico either. P. mexicana also wasn’t “discovered” until 1957 - just a few thousand years after people started consuming them, & people were definitely finding ovoids way before they were recognized as a new species (just search the forums).
And there isn’t much of a “lexicon” left from the Eastern Nations. Correct me I’m wrong but all of their languages were “lost” due to colonization, repression, forced relocation, etc. We don’t know anything about the “pagans” either, including what they called themselves. And I’m not sure we have any *solid* evidence they ate mushrooms at all. Colonization is a bitch.
-------------------- UNDO YOUR DOMESTICATION Looking for: ***The Land of the Free*** Ps. caerulipes Ps. cubensis Ps. cyanescens Ps. ovoideocystidiata Pan. cinctulus Pan. cyanescens
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